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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 12:53 pm 
Strapping on extra booster rockets

Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:52 pm
Posts: 329
Go Dale! I'm rooting for you.

(You should get a picture with flames coming out the back....)


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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 7:52 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!

Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:03 pm
Posts: 2859
Location: T2C
Another update. Matt and I spent a few hours this afternoon going through some diagnostic testing on the ECU. Voltages, resistances, duty cycles etc were within spec. The only thing out of spec seems to be the AMM and it's acting like it should, just not quite the voltages we expected. We're not convinced that will cause the issues we're having.

I'm getting a little ahead of my self actually. It would seem it was only running on 2 cylinders last night when I got it running. We got it running again today on two cylinders but... while swapping plug wires around to see if we could get it running on the other two cylinders, we figured out 2 and 3 plug wires were backwards on the distributor. #-o So it would seem my prognosis about retarded timing and excess fuel was simply a case of unburned fuel entering the exhaust manifold or turbo and burning there. Ian and I swapped the distributor cap Friday afternoon so there is a logical reason why these wires would get mixed up. Anyhow, once we got the right wires running to the right cylinders, it started and ran on all 4 and actually ran fairly well...until it died for no apparent reason. Then it would be difficult to start but when it started it would run fine...until it died again.

Once it was running, we went through the ECU with all the diagnostic tests as above. When nothing raised any flags, we started bringing up reasons why it would lose spark or fuel and die. The only logical reason we could see was bad fuel so we drained the tank and put 15L of fresh premium fuel along with a couple of bottles of gasline antifreeze in case there was water in the system. Didn't seem to help. So now we are scratching our heads again, wondering what would cause random fuel or spark failures. If I hold the throttle open to keep it above 1500 rpm, it'll run all day. Let it drop down to idle and it may run for 5 minutes but it may run for 5 seconds. Most times when it starts to die, it will drop 2 cylinders first, then die. Sometimes we can catch it with some throttle input but most times once it started to die, it would not be otherwise convinced. Unfortunately we don't have any way to watch spark and fuel on all 4 cylinders at the same time so it's difficult to tell what is dropping out. I suspect spark because it will occasionally pop some black smoke out the tail pipe when it is starting to die.

So the big question is...why is it randomly dropping spark. And...when it does, why does it seem to be 2 cylinders at the same time?

Tomorrow I'll pick up a new distributor cap and rotor. We can't see anything wrong with either one but it can't hurt to eliminate yet another suspect.

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'67 123GT
'67 122s
'99 AMG E55T


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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:24 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:40 pm
Posts: 3492
Location: Calgary, Ab
I do not believe it is spark. I witnessed several times that during the stumbles, all of the plug wires showed spark current via the timing light. Furthermore, the timing of the spark- on any plug - did nothing funny during the stumbles.

I have nothing to add to what Dale's said otherwise. We've tried 4 coils, 2 dizzy caps, 2 power stages, 2 ICUs, 2 ECT sensors, 2 knock sensors, 2 AMMs, 2 FPRs, 2 RSRs (plus a jumper), 2 resistor packs, 2 ECUs, 2 CPSs, 2 tanks of fuel... O2 sensor is behaving properly, fuel pump is pumping all the time, we've run the diagnostics on both ICU and ECU.

We did find a couple of small vacuum leaks and corrected them, we did a compression test and all 4 were within 5psi, and did 5000 visual and "wiggle" checks.

What's left?


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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:48 pm 
Whost Pore

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degraded wiring harness or something?


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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:17 am 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:14 pm
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Location: Missing my garage in Sunnyside
I don't see that you've tried a different idle control valve...not that that would explain fouled plugs. I would try a new O2 sensor while you're at it- the ford/bosch one I got was $26.

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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:55 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:40 pm
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Location: Calgary, Ab
Idle control valve would explain stalling, but not the way it's stalling. When it decides to die, there's practically nothing you can do about it. It drops below a certain RPM and it begins to drop cylinders, eventually down to 1, and when it gets to 1 you can have the throttle WFO and it won't recover.

The O2 sensor is working fine. It bounces back and forth across 0.5v and it's quite lively.


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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:39 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:14 pm
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Location: Missing my garage in Sunnyside
Well cheese and rice, the only thing left to do is an exorcism!

Is there a way to check the "base idle" (if there is such a thing) with LH 2.4? Can you ground out or disconnect the ICV? Idle right at the point the valve can't *quite* hold idle, and flow differential between cyls is enough to make it run rough before dying?

Clog or tear somewhere in the idle control system?

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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 5:05 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Location: Didn't learn, now renovating bathroom #2, and you think cars are expensive!!!
Pylon wrote:
... while swapping plug wires around to see if we could get it running on the other two cylinders, we figured out 2 and 3 plug wires were backwards on the distributor. #-o So it would seem my prognosis about retarded timing and excess fuel was simply a case of unburned fuel entering the exhaust manifold or turbo and burning there. Ian and I swapped the distributor cap Friday afternoon so there is a logical reason why these wires would get mixed up.

This is not a logical reason, I cannot believe I mixed up the firing order #-o I tripple checked it (although I did forget my glasses)

Is an intake hose colapsing? restriction in the intercooler?

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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:24 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!

Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:03 pm
Posts: 2859
Location: T2C
Volvord wrote:
Pylon wrote:
... while swapping plug wires around to see if we could get it running on the other two cylinders, we figured out 2 and 3 plug wires were backwards on the distributor. #-o So it would seem my prognosis about retarded timing and excess fuel was simply a case of unburned fuel entering the exhaust manifold or turbo and burning there. Ian and I swapped the distributor cap Friday afternoon so there is a logical reason why these wires would get mixed up.

This is not a logical reason, I cannot believe I mixed up the firing order #-o I tripple checked it (although I did forget my glasses)

Is an intake hose colapsing? restriction in the intercooler?


Meh...you're older than I am...you have an excuse...

I think we can call this one tentatively busted... =D> Tonight I replaced the ignition module, plugs, distributor cap and rotor. I also cleaned up the ground strip behind the drivers side headlight. I was also going to replace the AMM with a spare Athal was going to loan me. Once I had everything bolted in (except the AMM) I thought just for giggles I'd try and fire it up. Lo and behold if it didn't fire on the first crank :shock: . Not only that, it didn't try to die and no matter how hard I punched the throttle I could not make it hesitate. I let it idle until it came up to operating temperature and it never missed a beat. I shut it off and re-started it numerous times and it started every time and ran as normal. Then, at Matt's request, I put the old ignition module back in and started it up. It ran fine. We can eliminate that from the puzzle. Ultimately it was one of three things (we'll leave plugs out because I really doubt they were an issue). It was either the cap, the rotor or the ground. The rotor and ground were the only things we hadn't changed before and if I had the inclination I'd put the old cap back on to eliminate that too. Anyhow, it's back running. I appreciate everyone doing some head scratching and tossing out suggestions, no matter how far "out there" they were...

Now we'll just [-o< it stays running like this... :D

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Dale

'67 123GT
'67 122s
'99 AMG E55T


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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:09 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Hooray!

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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:23 pm 
Strapping on extra booster rockets

Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:52 pm
Posts: 329
Way to go. Heroic effort.

I liked the exorcism idea; I was thinking maybe it was Osama's ghost - not wanting to go down to the US.

J


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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:09 pm 
Strapping on extra booster rockets
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Location: Edmonton, AB
Argh... :oops:

I'm glad all is sorted now... it was mind-bending reading through the topic!!

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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:29 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:40 pm
Posts: 3492
Location: Calgary, Ab
Pylon wrote:
Volvord wrote:
I cannot believe I mixed up the firing order #-o I tripple checked it (although I did forget my glasses)


Meh...you're older than I am...you have an excuse...


Didn't you say that was a B20 cap, Dale? B20 distributors turn backwards, hence the mixed up 2&3. (Yes, I'm giving Ian an out.)


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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:57 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Location: Missing my garage in Sunnyside
Hooray!

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 Post subject: Re: Ok...my turn...Need suggestions asap...
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 9:52 am 
First volvo in outer space
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Way to hang in there, congrats. =D>

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66 122S (Garage Queen)
89 244 (Hers)
90 745Ti (Mine)
89 744 (SOLD/Bought back for other daughter)
78 242GT (Project... LOL)
91 244 (Don't Ask!!)


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