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 Post subject: Megasquirt decisions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:29 pm 
Hiring a japanese chess champion as ECU

Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:28 pm
Posts: 487
I bought a MS+S and Tech edge from Super1800GTR on T-bricks. I got the stuff today.

my question is about the MS. It is a 2.2. But I get the feeling I want the V3. Which is cool my dad said he'd buy the 2.2 from me.

Should I sell him the 2.2 and get a V3?

My plan I guess is to run Edis.

So is the upgrade to a 3 worth it?

Jordan


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:48 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:40 pm
Posts: 3492
Location: Calgary, Ab
Honestly, the difference between the 2 and the 3 is mostly in the on-board options it can run. As in, if you wanted to run coil-on-plug ignition and the VR decoder you'd be able to easily with that board, rather than build some daughtercards and stuff 'em in there.

The other major difference is with the CAN package - basically the main Megasquirt will be run as a server and there will be optional modules that control sequential injection and ignition, or gather up several dozen other inputs or outputs for whatever you can dream up. You must use MSII chip with this, but if you've already got the V3 board it's a simple upgrade. MSII can be run in the V1 or V2 boards, but you can't easily run the network unless you go with the V3.

Rob never used that Techedge Dale & I built for him? For shame.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:30 pm 
Hiring a japanese chess champion as ECU

Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:28 pm
Posts: 487
He got a second one from someone else in that group buy locally and sold the one he didn't use.

As it sits right now, I have no idea what code is running on that MS. MS was so much easier the few years back when I used it! One code and thats all you needed.

All I know is its version 2.2.

I know that I want to run EDIS.

I don't really care so much right now about the faster processing speeds and things, but in the future I might.

Hmmm I don't know what to do. I don't know the coding I"m running.

You guys got any more of those EDIS stuff laying around? I remember dale showing me a bunch a few years ago. Or maybe that was you and we were at that yard..... and get to work on your pulley!!!!!

Jordan


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:51 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:40 pm
Posts: 3492
Location: Calgary, Ab
Well the code doesn't matter - you can run any code on any board. You'll obviously need a MSnS-Extra code that supports EDIS, but again it doesn't matter what board you're using since the processor is exactly the same so long as you're using MS1

The V2 board (only the board) is different from the V1 board in that the one you used to have didn't have any jumpers for easy access to circuit changes, and the one you used to have was slightly different in the injection circuitry than the one you have now. Also, the early circuitry changes to stabilize the coil pickup signal were integrated right into the design of the board, rather than by adding on a bunch of extra components.

We've still got some EDIS-4 stuff laying around. I think we pulled 4 complete setups that one day, and I've only used the one. I gave John Grimsmo a VR sensor once, but I should still have one or two of everything you'd need.

The pulleys are ready to go on our end, but the machinist doesn't have his lathe yet. They'll be too expensive to do on the milling machine, so he's been holding us back a little bit. There are a bunch of B23 adapters on order (paid for), but the B20 and B230 ones are drawn up & use the same size material, so they shouldn't be too far behind. Both of those have shown interest, so we won't be holding them back for any reason!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:18 pm 
Hiring a japanese chess champion as ECU

Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:28 pm
Posts: 487
Awsome,

So what I need to do, is update my code to somthing that controls EDIS. That is do-able once I learn how to do the code update.

Awsome, thanks for clarifying all this. I've been outta the loop for a long time. I'll still talk to my dad and see if he wants this one, and I'll just get a V3 board. Since he just wants to do MS (I'm trying to talk him into EDIS on the 122 as well with your pulley).

How much do you guys want for one of those EDIS set ups?

How much is that B230 EDIS pulley gonna run in the end? Quite a bit more than the B20 one?

Jordan


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:03 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!

Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:03 pm
Posts: 2859
Location: T2C
Matt...don't forget Geoff's got one coming to him too..

Not that they're terribly hard to find at PYP...

_________________
Dale

'67 123GT
'67 122s
'99 AMG E55T


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:35 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:40 pm
Posts: 3492
Location: Calgary, Ab
Right, I forgot about that. Plus you're going to need one for the 122. Yeah, there are TONS in the yard and they're not that difficult to pull (for friends ONLY).

Jordan, I'm pretty out of the loop on MS as well. Frankly, I'm pretty tired of trying to keep up with all the stuff going on.

The code update is pretty easy, though a bit scary the first time. The later codes (starting with the original MSnS, I think) had a switch built in so that when you typed double exclamation points !! it would kick you into bootloader mode. That way you didn't have to open the case, jumper the jumper, and then power up hyperterminal & start loading. I tried Easytherm a couple times but it always failed, and HT has always been reliable for me so what the hell?

The B20 pulley will be the cheapest, I imagine. It's the least material, anyway... The B230 will be the most expensive - more material than both B23 and B20 combined, plus WAY more machining steps. We haven't been quoted yet on either B20 or B230. If the B23 EDIS adapter is $85 USD, I can see the B20 pulley being a bit less - less material but more machining. I'd be guessing wildly if I tried to estimate the B230 one, but I'm thinking it'll be no less than $100, probably closer to $120.

IMHO, getting an EDIS setup on the B20 will be easier than sourcing a '75 distributor and then adapting it to MSnS duty, and probably cheaper than adding a VR-based electronic ignition setup to an earlier dizzy, if they even exist.

Not that I'm trying to sour a sale, but you know that MSnS-Extra can accept the 60-2 input from your big heavy flywheel and fire a waste-spark coil setup like the EDIS system, right? It's a bit of work, and the EDIS is very elegant, but it's also a bit limited: You can't drop sparks at all, only retard the timing, so doing launch control, traction control, or rev limiting depends on how much timing your car wants. EDIS only gives you a range of control between 10*ATDC and 57*BTDC, and if you try and go outside of that, strange things happen.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:19 pm 
Hiring a japanese chess champion as ECU

Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:28 pm
Posts: 487
I knew that MS+S-e would be able to run my 60-2 that LH has. But I am sort of hoping to get rid of that huge flywheel and run an 8.5" or atleast a 9" that has been cut and lightened right down. That thing is HEAVY, my engine revs so much slower now than it did when it was even an auto. I don't know if I can get away with a 8.5" clutch with the Getrag though.

But lets say I stick with the 60-2. What wasted spark would I run? I'd like to get rid of my distributor if possible (hence edis). What should I start looking for? I thought EDIS, just because its simple. But I would really like to have a rev limiter, and try out the traction control stuff, which would be a bummer if I couldn't do that.

Now that I have this MS sitting here I want to put it in my car! Actually I'd really like to hook up the TE and see what kind of a/f ratio I have stock...

Jordan


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:24 am 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:40 pm
Posts: 3492
Location: Calgary, Ab
You could use any type of coil pack you want. GM used the same coils for many of their cars, and they're pretty reliable unless you mount them right to the block like they tended to do... You could use the Ford ones too.

You can use rev limiting and traction control with EDIS - don't get me wrong. With EDIS, you can only retard ignition advance to 10*ATDC, and that might not be enough for some features. For 6000+RPM rev limiting it's been quite good enough for me (even works pretty good at 4000 or so), and the TC was only in it's alpha testing stage when I tried it, so it might be more EDIS-friendly now. For launch control, that small amount of retard isn't enough to hold back an engine that's in neutral - it helps spool the turbo, for sure, but it doesn't let you build any boost. Boost comes MUCH sooner, but it's not like you can plant your foot and let Megasquirt hold back the engine - you've sort of got to keep one eye on it. Then again, I only tried that at 2500 RPM or so... at higher RPMs it might work out okay, but full boost at 3000 RPM might blow away the tires on a launch anyway.

I threw my techedge in my 760 when I was working out the fuel system troubles, and the on-boost AFRs were around 13.0:1. It's actually pretty surprising how bad the AFRs got in my car under normal use, without really being able to feel it. Credit the auto for that, I suppose. Also the CBV really disturbs the AFRs for a few seconds after a full-boost letoff.


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