Hi. In case you haven't read my other posts, I am putting-together a 122 wagon, after a 'good' paint-job. I have all of my suspension out, including the rear axle/diff and front cross-member. All that stuff is getting sand-blasted or glass-beaded, so I am thinking about how to coat/protect that clean metal, and also what to do about the underbody.

Here is a post I found from Craig, some time ago:

Killing rust - very deep topic. The situations you describe would require a few different procedures. I tend to buff with a wire cup first and remove the majority of the surface rust. Then it gets an acid treatment (usually phosphoric - Metal Ready) then I would coat everything with epoxy primer. It sticks to everything and in most military tests, out performs POR. Then I apply a top coat of some sort (left over urethane is preferred) - definitely has to be something with a hardener. Then undercoat and your good to go.

You have to be very careful with the metal ready as you have to neutralize it with water. That leaves you a nice coat of surface rust if you didn't get it coated long enough (wet for 1/2 hour) or get it everywhere. There are also many issues with prep after that process - I just shoot it once dry as doing anything else has ended up wrong.

Seams are more difficult. I first wire brush all the old seam sealer out (that's the hard part) and clean it up with dental picks or a torch (burns out pretty well). Then wire it again. If it is rusty (like on the 240), then I blasted it with my little spot blaster until the rust is gone. Then epoxy prime it, seam it again with a urethane sealer (really loving that stuff right now - Fusor 801) - apply tape to either side of the seam, tool the seam, then remove the tape in one even pull. I also use this on the back side of all weld areas.

Finally, where I use POR is where none of these things will work. There were some seams under the 240 that were not seam sealed, couldn't be wire brushed etc...so I soak them with POR. It bonds to the top of the rust, but still has to be clean. So I hit it with brake clean until clean and then coat it. If the metal is bare, it has to be treated with the metal ready (acid etched) or it won't stick.

(me again) I'm good with most of that, but want to hear other's experience also. I have a pint of POR 15 - where to get more in Calgary?? Also, I have been using "One Step" acid prep. It doesn't have to be washed-off, and is paintable. Liquid or aerosol. The instructions are two coats, and let dry somehwere warm for 24 hours. A lot chaper than POR15.

Next question: is paint thinner good enough for degreasing?

And.... The body-shop seam-sealed underbody welds with that white non-drying stuff. How do I cover that??

And....!!! What about undercoating - is the box liner stuff the best? My body-shop still uses gravel guard, which I think peels-off, unless... ???

Finally, I'm shy of just painting underbody parts - anybody tried the powder-coat-in-your-oven products? I have all this cleannnnn metal, I could do some parts, at least.


T'anks,

James

Hi,

No responses yet. I happened to drive by a Line-X place yesterday, and went in to see if they could suggest any alternatives. Nope! They definitely like their Line-X! Hmmmm. So, what-about Line-X'ing parts? I've already painted my control-arms, and they are chipped just from moving them around reasonably gently. Hmmmm. "How-much?" I ask. Not cheap. Hmmmm. Yes, they will mask bolt-holes, and can do any colour. Hmmmmm. I drive away with a card and some interest. Hours later I come up with an idea - only Line-X the BOTTOMS of cross-member, axle/diff, control-arms, and trailing-arms..... Half the price, paint the other half (first) and I think it would be the best solution. Maybe $400. He said the whole cross-member would be about $125. Any thoughts? Bots on the diff cover would have to be masked, but I imagine they do that fine.

I have 4 cans of primer. Of-course none of them are epoxy primer (Craig...). Rats! Shouldn't matter if I paint the parts right-away, right? I've never used a paint-gun (except to paint my fence).

About the undercarriage, I think I'm going to borrow a buddy's sandblaster and blast everything. Then Por 15 what ain't perfect. Could I use a gun to spray underneath there, or would there be too-much over-spray?

I really must get a car-cover. 122 owners: is there one for 122's, or by size, or....?


I'm feeling dumb here - let's have some opinions!!

James

Craig is really your man here, and he was traveling from Vancouver on Wednesday, so he probably hasn't had a chance to see this post yet.

I've purchased POR-15 from the distributor in Ontario, but that was a few years back and haven't bought any since. I think Dale's got his from there too. Quick shipping, saves you the trip, and AFAIK has all the choices rather than what some reseller in Calgary might choose to stock.

The one-step metal etch systems aren't any good, from what I understand. This is the base of your very expensive restoration, so I wouldn't skimp out here.

You'd probably want to test an area with the white non-drying seam sealer to see if paint will stick to it. It probably will. If you trust the body shop, leave it alone, but if you don't trust them you might want to carve out the sealer and treat that area yourself. Your call.

For undercoating, I know Craig's made a post on that too, that you could search. I think it was in his 242 restoration thread (or maybe in my 123 GT thread). Use the proper stuff, and it applies with a Shutz gun. If you don't have one but have a compressor, the gun itself is pretty cheap.

The powdercoat-in-your-oven stuff works well, from reports I've heard, but I don't think you want to use your kitchen oven for that. If you've got another oven to use, I say get the kit 'cause you'll probably find a million uses for it. If you have it all ready and want it all the same colour, you could take it to Top Gun Coating and they'd do it pretty economically, or you could take it to where we get our anodizing done and take your pick of surface treatments (cad wash, zinc wash, anodizing, etc.) You'll have to ask Dale (Pylon) the name of the place 'cause I keep forgetting the name and at the moment only know where it is.

As far as bedliner, I'd probably avoid it. I've got some peeling areas in my truck bed that happened when my toolbox caught an edge and peeled it off one warm day. Can't tell you who did it, or if they're vastly inferior to anyone else,

Epoxy primer comes, by definition, in multiple parts. It hardens up via a chemical reaction, so it isn't going to be available in a spray bomb. You're going to need a spray gun, and you're going to have to get far enough away from the surface to properly apply it. 12-18" gun tip to surface, plus the gun, plus your arm... you're probably going to need the car 2.5-3 feet in the air. Jack stands and extra wood bases, I'd suggest, plus a series of risers for your jack to sit on. The higher you can get it, the better.

The sandblaster is a fine idea, but you get sand EVERYWHERE. Trust me. You'll find it years later in various nooks & crannies. If you're doing it in your garage, you're also going to need a ventilated hood, some good canvas or leather clothing, heavy gloves, and LOTS of air compressor. You can get lots of places that you can't with a wire cup on an angle grinder, and it'll be a lot quicker.

With regards to overspray, that all depends on how much room you give yourself to work, how good you are with the gun, and how thoroughly you mask the surroundings.

Roj sells car covers - isn't he your neighbor friend?

Hi,

That was very useful, especially the idea of jacking the car up even higher. I'm not sure I know how I will do that yet, but I can see it now. I guess I'll start searching-out big lumber, and yeah, tarps, protective gear, and lots of dust. I have a pretty-big compressor.


I'm terribly dissapointed if the One Step is not a good product - I've already painted a few things with it - but Ok, I'll look into that more.

Thanks for all that. I tend to get into things over my head sometimes, and need some advice. Keeps life interesting though.

James

Hi James,

I just saw this post this AM...as soon as I got home from Vancouver I was out in the garage with the boys putting the 242 together and barely got it done for an appointment at the glass shop this AM. Not to worry - we're always on the job.

OK - Matt's hit all the bases but I've got some additional information for you. As for killing rust, you have to be very careful with the acid etch and I do tend to stay away from it if I can. The leave on stuff causes adhesion problems with the top coats as they can't bind to the metal surface. The acid etch that you rince off can cause rust if you've not followed the instructions and allowed sufficient time for the chemistry to work for you. It is required to get POR to stick and that's where I use it just about exclusively. POR doesn't bond to fresh metal very well at all and can peel off in big sheets if you paint it over shiny metal.

Epoxy primer is the only product I'd use over sheet metal or exposed areas. No drying seam sealer is from the dark ages - carve that sh!t out and get some polyurethane seam sealer (Fusor is a good brand) - follow the instructions on line and you'll be much happier.

No issues with using bed liner as an undercoat, but no real reason to do it either. There are plenty of really good products that you can shoot out of a can and o a find job. All are listed as gravel gaurd (UPol, 3M, Pro Form are all fine products). All are tintable if that is what you want - all witll need minimal care and attention if applied correctly. Nothing will stick correctly to dirt. Get it up in the air - you'll find that it ticks you off less that way.

I've never powder coated in an oven - but have used several coaters in Lethbridge and Calgary - Matt lised my favorite. Top Gun has alwasy done great work for me and they are very reasonably priced (http://www.topguncoatings.com/) for the price, it isn't worth my time to do it myself. Don't bring them rusty greasy stuff - bring it clean and ready to go, it turns out better that way.

Suspension parts can be either powdered or painted with POR. I've had good luck with the POR stuff - and you won't chip it, even if you slug it with a hanmmer. Powder is prefered, cause you need a grinder to get that stuff off - it is much tougher. If I was doing it again, I'd coat it.

Hi Craig,

Well, I went and sandblasted a bunch of parts today. At home I sprayed everything with Metal Ready, then washed them down. Question: some parts are streaky yellow (the phosphate I assume). Is this normal??

All is drying until tomorrow.

James

(An hour and a bath later) Lots of white and streaky yellow.

Mmmmmm. I just looked it up on the Net - Iron Phosphate crystals are tan coloured, good. Maybe the white is a residue - I didn't actually wipe the metal, just rinsed it with water (3x). I'll go out and try wiping some parts and see how they dry.

Thanks for your help - I'm excited to start blasting the car now too.

(I still don't have the bolt out. I can't easily do what you suggested, so drilled the holes and - yes! - the Liquid Wrench is soaking-in! 2 or 3 x a day I can add another drop. I'm going-away for two months, so might continue to let it soak while I am gone. If that doesn't work, I will take it to my friend the machinist/welder (trip to Red Deer), and he can do whatever is necessary.

James

BTW - is that a Volvo colour? It looks pretty similar to mine (paint code: IGBJB).

J

Cool, glad to hear that things are shaping up. My 242 is painted Porsche Marine Blue.

Hi,

This morning I went outside and there is a lot of white dust on the metal parts (along with the yellow/brown). So, I called Por15 and the guy said right-away I could paint over that.

I did a little ciphering, and I figure the white powder is zinc oxide (which is white). Zinc phosphate (in metal-ready) reacts with iron oxide to make iron phospate and zinc oxide. It doesn't go the other way, because zinc is a more base metal (more reactive; likes oxygen) than iron. Phosphoric acid (in metal-ready) also reacts with the pure iron to create hydrogen gas (the bubbles/white foam) and iron phosphate. So the metal is protected, provides a good bonding surface, and (some) rust eliminated. In this case, the iron is a more base metal than the hydrogen in the phosphoric acid - H3(PO4)2, so the iron breaks-down in favour of the hydrogen, which is released. In some ways hydrogen can be considered a metal, and forms part of a replacement series which determines which way reactions go. Acids dissolve metals which are lower on this series, releasing pure hydrogen. Maybe that lost you, but if you are interested I can explain it more.

I seem to have a cold this morning, so we will see what gets done today.

Jim

I see by the counter that this will be my 50th post, and hopefully as the counter ticks over my derogatory description as a "Canadian Tire bolt-on" guy will dissapear! Hmmm, I wonder what I might be next??

See you all in two months, as I'm off to a 2-month teaching position. When I return, RUST - WATCH-OUT! I've got two pints of Endura "Green Death".

James

Cam and headers...now how did it all work out. If we have to wait for two months we'll all die wondering