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 Post subject: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:55 pm 
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Location: City of Champignons
Hey Volvofolk. Glad to find this site.

Two years ago, I bought a 740 Turbo coupe from a fellow in Victoria. The last three cars I've had have all been murdered by the Treacherous Bloody Tinworm, and I wanted one that was starting rust free, so Victoria seemed the best place to look. This is my first Volvo, and I fell in love with the solid, boxy utilitarian-ness of it, as well as her ability to swing out from behind a tanker truck between Kamloops and Blue River and just make that big bastard disappear...

Got her home, sunk $3500 worth of OOPI money into it at Sandy lane, discovered that as good as they are, I can't afford 'em, and have since entrusted her upkeep to the guy I've been going to since 1986 for all my Beater Maintenance Needs. But now I have encountered an issue he can't help with, as he "doesn't do turbos". She's got 270,00 km and is still running fine, with one big exception...

The turbocharger itself is well and truly pooched - lots of oil into the intercooler, gobs of shaft play. So much oil has blown into the top intercooler hose that she's rotted out from the inside. I had to bodge it with duct tape to get her home on Monday. The fellow working on it now (Pug City Euroworks, here in Edmonton) says the turbo needs to be rebuilt or replaced. And so I need some direction from you folks.

Question 1 - I know enough about this to understand that the turbo is either a Garret T3 or a Mitsubishi. How can I tell the difference from looking at the damned thing? Does Garrett always display GARRETT in giant block letters on their turbos, or are they going to make me look for subtleties?

Question 2 - Who can you recommend as a turbo rebuilder in Edmonton/Calgary? I've been in touch with Alamo, and they seem to have a decent rep. Folks on the local Subaru forum have had good luck with them. Have any of you been there/done that?

I don't make a bunch of money. I want to do this just once, absolutely right, and I want it to last as long as a turbo can. I'll do my part with correct cooldown procedure and very regular oil changes, but if I'm going to drop the sick amount of money on this that it's lining up to be, I want to start with a solid turbo that's been carefully rebuilt and balanced.

Thanks for the benefit of your wisdom. I am very glad to find you.

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:23 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!

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Hi Dan. Welcome to the forum. There are others here much wiser than I when it comes to turbos. An option you haven't mentioned that would be somewhat lighter on your wallet would be to pull one at Pick n Pull. I've seen a number of 740 turbos with good turbos on them. I think there are 3 turbo cars at PnP in Calgary. There is a '90 with nice hoses too. I realize you are in Edmonton but you might start there. I see there is a '93 940 there. Don't know if that's a turbo or not but worth a look...

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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:08 pm 
Whost Pore

Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:26 pm
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Location: E-Town
bug jordan on here in the for sale forum, he's parting out a car right now that has a turbo and a 90+ mani, swap it on with some new exhaust gaskets, you're in for an afternoon of fun, but otherwise it's painfully simple.


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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:01 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:14 pm
Posts: 1875
Location: Missing my garage in Sunnyside
Hi Dan, glad to see you signed up!

As mentioned, the budget way to go would be a junkyard turbo. If it doesn't appear abused, it will probably last you several years, and cost <$100 for parts. You can get a good known used one from a turbo-bricker for $2-300.

A rebuild kit is not expensive and it's not too hard to do, though garretts don't require rebalance like mitsu's.

A new turbo of course is "safest" but you'll be spending at least $600 (probably closer to $1000) just on the unit.

Of course, everything is more expensive if you're paying someone to do the work, but an R&R of manifold/turbo shouldn't be more than 1.5-2 hours I don't think.

I know you only want to do it once, but the money you save by going used can go a long way.

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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:43 am 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:40 pm
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Hi, Dan

Turbo identification, quick method:

Earliest cars, Garrett T3: CHRA (Center Housing Rotating Assembly, as it's known) is bolted to the turbine housing with 6 bolts and two semicircular plates. The compressor housing has AIResearch embossed on it. In the 740/760 it uses an external CBV (valve bolted to the head that has a rougly 1" ID hose from the compressor discharge hose and returns to the compressor inlet hose.) Exhaust manifold has "flat" runners, and the turbo bolts to the manifold from behind the manifold (turbine housing is threaded). Very few were not water cooled, but some were. Here's a picture of the Pierburg CBV:

Image

'88-'89, Mitsubishi TD05: CHRA is fastened to the turbine housing with a V-band clamp, compressor housing has an integral CBV. This turbo was only ever used with the flat early manifold as well, so the turbine housing is threaded and bolts to the manifold from behind the manifold.

'90+, Mitsubishi TD04: CHRA is fastened to the turbine housing with a V-band clamp again, but this time it's bolted to the manifold from the front, so you can easily see the nuts holding things together. It's also going to be on the more desirable "90+" manifold, more desirable that is if it's been opened up and hasn't cracked. The manifold has round runners, no flat sides. The turbo also has an integral CBV, but there are two styles - straight and angled. Angled is later.

Random, Garrett T25: CHRA is bolted to the turbine housing like the Garrett T3. It distinguishes itself from the earlier T3 by an integral CBV like the Mitsubishi. I think it came on both early and late manifolds.

In looking for images, I found this site:

http://www.nuceng.ca/workspace/Volvo%20 ... cation.htm

Identify your turbo first, and then we should discuss options. You might even want to upgrade, and not bother with the same turbo. If you change turbo families, though, you will probably have to problem solve some minor plumbing issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:53 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:31 pm
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Excellent information, Ugly Duck - many thanks.

Based on your pictures and my memory, it appears I have a Garret, assuming all the Mitsubishis have an integral CBV. I had an issue with the CBV at Christmas - the bolts worked themselves loose, it damned near dropped off the front of the block, and any throttle that got the turbo boost gauge excited caused a lot of stumbling and black smoke - the exact same symptoms I experienced at Easter when the top intercooler hose let go.

Maybe it's something about Christian High Holidays. I think my car believes in the Old Gods.

In conversation with a nice Texan at Turbochargers.com, he opined that Volvo occasionally made a turbo with either Garrett or Mitsu innards but a Volvo-specific external housing. Based on everything I'm seeing here, that does not appear to be accurate. Safe assumption?

My mechanic is going to Vegas tonight, but has promised me pictures before he goes. I'll forward them to here for confirmation. Assuming he's not in a shallow desert grave by then, he's back on Monday and we're in business. That gives me the weekend to come up with something that works, as I have to do some driving next weekend, and the sweet, sweet mileage money is helping to keep my geriatric Swede thundering along.

SwedishMeatball makes a good case re: good used vs. new. I'll look for BugJordan's ad. Does anyone know of another source of a good used Garrett? If I can swing it, I'm going to hit a few wrecking yards on Saturday and see what I can come up with. I know one can tell a pooched turbo by determining the amount of play in the shaft, with zero being about right. Is that the only diagnostic?

Thanks again, folks. This is great stuff to know.

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:21 am 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:40 pm
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Location: Calgary, Ab
The turbine housings are pretty much Volvo-specific, with an engagement/alignment/sealing scheme. The manifold has a raised circle and the turbine housing has a depressed circle. No gasket is used in between them. This started in 1982 or 1983 in the 240s, so yours will have this housing design.

However, you can mill off the raised portion of the manifold and use a gasket, if all you can find (or want to use) is a non-Volvo turbo.

Typically the 700 series cars used 0.48 A/R turbine housings with the Garrett turbos, while the 240 series cars used 0.63 A/R. If you don't know anything about turbos, the A/R of a turbine housing is basically the nozzle size: The smaller the A/R, the smaller the nozzle, and the faster/harder the exhaust hits the turbine wheel (at the expense of backpressure). What this means is that the turbochargers in 240s take a little longer to spool up but make more power at the top end. Consider this when turbo shopping. The smaller turbine housing works well with automatics, the larger one is great with a manual.

The rest of the parts are 100% Garrett or Mitsu, as far as I know. I've "rebuilt" a couple Garretts (installed a parts kit after cleaning and inspection) and nothing has jumped out at me as incompatible.

There are lots of upgrade choices if you're sticking with a standard Garrett. The '84-'85 Ford turbo cars (Turbo Coupe, SVO) used the somewhat legendary "60-63", which is basically a standard T3 with the largest factory components. The compressor housing is larger than the Volvo, and the turbine housing is the same size as the 240 housing. This is a flat mounting flange, so you need to deal with the exhaust manifold. There are T3/T4 hybrids, which I would stay away from if I were you, 'cause unless you buy from a reputable source you're asking for trouble, not to mention these tend to be crazily mismatched so that you have a monster compressor spun by an itty bitty turbine housing, creating nothing but backpressure. If your engine needs more flow from the compressor, it needs to get more flow through the turbine. You can even fit some diesel turbos on there (Holset comes to mind) but these are overkill unless you're running a seriously built engine and a large enough fuel system.


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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 7:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:31 pm
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Gotta tell you, folks - you've been an enormous help.

I called Jordan a couple of weeks ago and brought his 740 home. She's about stripped out, and once the shocks and swaybar are clear of the wreckage, she's off to the squisher. Kinda heartbreaking, but I guess we all go to the squisher at some point...

For the record, Jordan is a gracious and generous man, and I'm very glad to have met him.

The turbo we salvaged, while "experienced", is certainly better than the poor oil-flinging SOB I was running. Drove Edmonton - Hinton today and the old car is much stronger now, boost seems to come on faster, and all is right in the world.

I'll be listing some of the bits and pieces in the "for sale" forum shortly. I'm keeping the alternator, sway bars, and shocks, but the rest is going, going going at rock bottom blowout prices!

Cheers, all, and thanks again.

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:28 am 
First volvo in outer space
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Thought it made sense to revive this thread to build on the information already discussed, and to apply it to my own potentially sick turbo.

The car is the 1990 745Ti with ~ 329K km on what I believe to be the original turbo. I haven't done any digging as far as model, shaft play etc., but something is definitley not well and I think it's the turbo.

The car has always been hard on oil since I got it, consuming a litre every 2-3K km or more, but the latest usage is getting ridiculous. We are on holidays right now and am sitting in Hinton. On the drive up I added a litre of oil in Canmore and headed up the Parkway to Jasper. The turbo still pulls well (as much as I know as this is the first turbo'd 7 series car I've owned) and there is no sign of oil leakage or smoke, however, the oil is now down 1/2 a litre in the roughly 400 km we drove. :shock: I did have some fun on the way with boost passing slower cars but this is getting out of hand. The last oil change I pulled the IC drain plug, and while oily, no appreciable oil came out.

I have thought about doing the reseal kit route but was thinking that maybe now is the time to do an upgrade and go bigger. For now I am looking to keep it fairly simple, so no chips, bigger injectors, IC's etc. I am thinking about chipping the ECU/EZK I get from Sol down the road and improving the exhaust, but am not out to build anything real crazy.

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66 122S (Garage Queen)
89 244 (Hers)
90 745Ti (Mine)
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78 242GT (Project... LOL)
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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:04 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:14 pm
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Location: Missing my garage in Sunnyside
Before you start spending money on upgrades, make sure you figure out the source of your oil consumption. With that kind of mileage on a turbo motor, I'd be surprised if the cylinder head DIDN'T need a rebuild. The valve guides get worn and you start getting alot of oil getting past there, or combustion gas into the oil. If you can, try and see how your oil pressure is. If it starts out ok after an oil change and gets noticeably lower after a few km chances are the oil is getting watered down with fuel. Does the oil smell like gas?
If you don't have any noticeable leaks, and the intercooler isn't full of oil, odds are the oil is getting burnt up= time for head work, or worst case, bottom end. Compression test, leak down test. If the turbo makes boost, isn't making funny noises, and otherwise seems fine, it probably is.
I knew a guy had over 400k on his original turbo with no signs of problems- he was a maintenance freak.

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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:07 pm 
First volvo in outer space
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^^Good points on compression testing, I was thinking of that to make sure the oil wasn't going elsewhere so I'll get that done for sure. I had a UOA done last oil change because of the excessive consumption and it came back fine for fuel dilution and insolubles. I would have thought the viscosity would have been out of range as the first litre after a change goes ~ 3000 km, whereas the next ones are 1600-2000 km but it was good as well. It sure seems to be a boost useage issue as the consumption is far higher on highway drives that involve a lot of climbing and/or passing.

(Tried attaching the report without much success, it's a PDF so I haven't figured out to save it as an image in PB)

ETA: Got the UOA attached as a pdf, sorry it's not embedded.

Also, I'm pretty sure the high silicon reading isn't dirt and is in the Lucas Upper Cylinder Fuel lubricant/cleaner I was using.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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66 122S (Garage Queen)
89 244 (Hers)
90 745Ti (Mine)
89 744 (SOLD/Bought back for other daughter)
78 242GT (Project... LOL)
91 244 (Don't Ask!!)


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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:40 pm
Posts: 3482
Location: Calgary, Ab
If you're not seeing oil in the intercooler that's a good start. Do a leakdown test and see if you're losing compression past the rings - that uses oil in two ways. The first is obvious, but on the highway the blowby can build up to positive crankcase pressure levels, and it does it will squeeze oil out of the turbine shaft. Crankcase ventilation is usually adequate on these, but when the engine starts getting loose the ventilation is taxed and sometimes found wanting.

Of course it could also be what Athal mentioned: rings and guides.


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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:31 am 
First volvo in outer space
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Ugly Duck wrote:
If you're not seeing oil in the intercooler that's a good start. Do a leakdown test and see if you're losing compression past the rings - that uses oil in two ways. The first is obvious, but on the highway the blowby can build up to positive crankcase pressure levels, and it does it will squeeze oil out of the turbine shaft. Crankcase ventilation is usually adequate on these, but when the engine starts getting loose the ventilation is taxed and sometimes found wanting.

Of course it could also be what Athal mentioned: rings and guides.


Hmmm, looking at the UOA leads me to believe blowby is negligible. However, I haven't seen any leaks (yet) or dipstick ejections, when checking the oil the dipstick tube is pretty "steamy". The pattern of oil useage on the highway (ie: more boost use) does seem to support the blowby possibility. I'll get some numbers and post them up before I get to far in to upgrades, not to sure how far I'll go with this car if it needs major engine work so might as well find out now...

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66 122S (Garage Queen)
89 244 (Hers)
90 745Ti (Mine)
89 744 (SOLD/Bought back for other daughter)
78 242GT (Project... LOL)
91 244 (Don't Ask!!)


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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:34 am 
First volvo in outer space
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Got some compression numbers yesterday with Craig's help and determined that a leakdown test was unnecessary. Compression hot (actually very hot :lol: ) was 148/148/150/150 with zero leakdown. It would appear that the oil is going past the turbo as we determined it has a lot of shaft play, this seems reasonable as it's most likely the OG turbo with 330K on it so it's served it's purpose.

First question is the compression reasonable for this motor and km's? It's obviously wearing evenly so that's a good sign. I started doing some reading on TB and it seems a 15G is the popular turbo upgrade for 7/9 series. I'm not looking for a monster car just an upgrade that adds some HP but maintains driveability and reliability. My initial thoughts after performing a stage 0 were a 15G swap, upgrade the exhaust to 3" and add a MBC. I was also thinking of chipping the 9xx ECU/EZK I get from Sol so I have the engine management upgraded as well. As far as a power goal I was thinking 200-225 HP is good. Like I said driveability and reliability are more important than a few extra HP, I want a car with more performance that I don't have to be wrenching on all the time.

Does that make sense, am I doing too much or expecting too much? Things I should or shouldn't be doing based on power goals and reliability requirements? In the short term I was thinking of resealing my 12C (I think) or swapping a cheap 13C in to get me by while I decide on upgrades and acquire parts. Can I reseal the 12C or does it need to be balanced after, I think only the Garretts could be resealed without balancing?

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Jim

66 122S (Garage Queen)
89 244 (Hers)
90 745Ti (Mine)
89 744 (SOLD/Bought back for other daughter)
78 242GT (Project... LOL)
91 244 (Don't Ask!!)


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 Post subject: Re: Howdy! New guy requests advice re: pooched turbo...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:39 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Location: Missing my garage in Sunnyside
I have a 60 trim t3 and new supply line kit that I was going to use but no longer have a use for sitting in my garage in Calgary...

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