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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:47 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Location: Lethbridge, AB
Volvord wrote:
Princess Auto have a very nice fuse block that holds 6 ATO fuses.
I bought one to use in my trailer.
Would be a quick and easy fix.


Excellent news. No time for that fix right now as I still have a speech to put together for 300 people in Edmonton on Wednesday! All car stuff sort of has to be done right now. There may well be one of these in the future, but then if I was going to do that, I'd pull that harness right inside the car and hide all the wiring in the engine bay as you are doing with Dale's car. Much smarter idea. That will be one thing I'll be looking for at the IPD meet - the blessed 25A short fuse.

As I think about it, I could probably mod the original euro ceramic fuse to hold the ATO style and still have it look stock. How hard can that be? Maybe I'll look for a used fuse panel and do that - even more trick.

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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:05 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!

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122_Canuck wrote:
Maybe I'll look for a used fuse panel and do that - even more trick.


I have 2, maybe 3 used panels. I know I pulled one from the 123 at PnP a year ago. I have the one from my red 122 and I think there is another in the pile of spare parts I got with the 123. You're certainly welcome to one of them...

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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:39 am 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Pylon wrote:
122_Canuck wrote:
Maybe I'll look for a used fuse panel and do that - even more trick.


I have 2, maybe 3 used panels. I know I pulled one from the 123 at PnP a year ago. I have the one from my red 122 and I think there is another in the pile of spare parts I got with the 123. You're certainly welcome to one of them...


Cool, bring one along and we'll have a look at how I could retrofit it. I'm sick of Bosch torpedo nonsense fuses. Perhaps another sale item for Avalanche?

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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:59 am 
Strapping on extra booster rockets

Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:46 pm
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Location: B-Ham WA/Portland, OR USA
Really? I prefer the ceramic fuses. Just get good ones from germany. I like em way better than american style fuses...much easier to inspect visually, better cooling when running near capacity, easy to remove/clean. Then again, I came from a VW background and have never owned an american car and never plan to (not unless it is very cool or very old or extremely fast)...I don't count trucks.


Granted, the 122 fuse box location doesn't do those any favors. I'd just make a cover for the stock fuse box and use a moisture inhibiting spray inside it personally. That is something totally within coburn reach I'd think. Don't you have a sickness for fussy little attention to detail restoration stuff? Coca cola and die-electric contact goop do amazing things...cola both cleans them real well, inhibits rust and is minimally invasive. Amazing stuff...removes esophagus lining too with enough rum and coke...yikes.

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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:03 am 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Location: Lethbridge, AB
945_James wrote:
Really? I prefer the ceramic fuses. Just get good ones from germany. I like em way better than american style fuses...much easier to inspect visually, better cooling when running near capacity, easy to remove/clean. Then again, I came from a VW background and have never owned an american car and never plan to (not unless it is very cool or very old or extremely fast)...I don't count trucks.


Granted, the 122 fuse box location doesn't do those any favors. I'd just make a cover for the stock fuse box and use a moisture inhibiting spray inside it personally. That is something totally within coburn reach I'd think. Don't you have a sickness for fussy little attention to detail restoration stuff?

Some say he...
...all we know is...


Agreed James, One of the biggest problems is the shorty 25A fuse that is not available (this is the one that has caused the problems). It could be converted to a long style in a pinch (bending the tab) - but this is a little less than trick. I was thinking a refitted inside with the original cover would be cool.

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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 8:09 am 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Good news for a change. I had to drive to Medicine Hat last night to pick up the front bumper for the car. We made it there in about the worst weather I've seen down here for a while. It was raining so hard that it was hard to see and the road was better fit for a boat (hydroplaning was a problem). So much for keeping the car clean!

If that 4 hours didn't kill it, I'm happy. I managed to average around 20 mpg and need to do some tuning (less advance and lower idle). The economy wasn't great, but it should get better as things loosen up.

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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 11:36 am 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Location: Didn't learn, now renovating bathroom #2, and you think cars are expensive!!!
good news indeed Craig
as for your gas milage, mine is sounding quite good right now :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:07 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Time for some resurection - So I've put around 3000 miles on the new engine and must admit that I haven't been very good about tuning. Heck, it was getting 30ish mpg (of the smaller ones) so why bother. I noticed on the way to and from Osoyoos that my engine performance was borderline annoying.

This was the first really serious mountain driving that I'd done in the car since replacing the engine. When we went to Portland, there was a little blip through the mountains, then back to the flat. I knew I needed to do something as the dieseling had me thinking about taking that pretty engine out of the car and giving it a going over - I even contacted RSI about a stroker crank (still no reply - how do these guys stay in business?). I get frustrated pretty easily these days.

So, armed with my screwdriver and my timing light, we set off for Osoyoos with part of my goal being a decent tuning session on the "rolling road" with my butt dyno.

First stop was just outside of Lethbridge, where I decided to back the timing off a little more to try to stop the pinging on hard accelleration. It's 7am - I'm pulled off on the side of the road with the hood up amusing the school bus drivers. I had backed it off from 10 degrees BTDC to 5 degrees on the way to Portland as 10 was causing pinging all over the place. So I took a few more degrees out of the thing - down to 2 degrees. I knew it was nuts, but I had to try.

Start off down the road - no power at all...drive a mile - pull over, reset the timing and adjust the carbs a little. This time I go over 5 to 8 and test. I had been doing the timing 5 degrees at a time - a little coarse. Start out. This setting lasts until we get to Osoyoos - really not much better than 5 degrees, but I was coming in and out of the OD on the really steep climbs. What I did notice was that if I put my foot into it, not only was the throttle response terrible, but the flat spot between 2100 and 2600 was worse. Several people -(Matt, Greg and Dale) have experienced this spot in real life and it would get off the line, fall flat on it's face, then pick up with a vengence - bad news, this is my cruise range in OD on the highway.

So that pretty much sucked for highway driving - now if I choose to drive at 3K rpm (about 120ish) then I can climb hills all day long as the cam is making some power there, but on many sections this is a little brisk. Biggest problems are things like passing where you need to tromp on it to move around someone. Not cool when you get hard on the gas and just about feel like you decelerate.

Take the extra 3 degrees out in Osoyoos and live with it during the cruise - don't want people to think the little car lack power (it makes such lovely power noises). Our cruise through the states on Saturday was also difficult, especially coming out of corners on uphill sections. When I needed to step on it, the car had nothing to give unless I was quick and grabbed a lower gear. PITA. Luckily, these guys were not driving like maniacs (feels fast in a stock car - not so much in mine) so I was still in the lead pack...it was just annoying.

I fiddled with the carbs and richened them up a touch - this actually helped a bit. I was chatting with one of the 1800 guys at the Lordco (why don't we have them here?) and he was getting some octane boost to fix his problems (which sounded not unlike my own). He let me use his discount card (30% - hot damn - added a few other items to the shopping cart) and I picked up some NOS for myself.

Lumber out of Osoyoos on the way home and try to run the car out of fuel by Cranbrook (they have 94 octane at the Chevron) - Put in 41 l of the good stuff and a bottle of the boost - should give me 100 octane. The car likes that lots and there was an instant change in performance. It would pull hills, didn't diesel as much and seemed happier - I'm to cheap to spend an extra 25 cents a litre on additives. So I figure I'm just masking the problem.

Back to Lethbridge, I was thinking about what Matt had said about getting the distributor curve checked and re-curved...into the performance shop and asking questions about who in town does this sort of thing. Off to Big Al's auto for a check up. Al got me in right away and checked the distributor on the car. Here's what he found. From idle, I had 28 degrees of mechanical advance by 1300 RPM! - so from a stand still the centrifugal advance was coming almost all in by just over idle, in fact it was all in by 2100 rpm (butt dyno working - check).

Now that isn't right - so he takes it all apart and changed up the springs to something from a GM (God help us all) and notices that the limiters are warn. So he welds up those parts and sticks it all back together. I've now got 8 degrees less at 1300 rpm and all in is 3K or somewhere like that.

He reset the base timing to 10 degrees and I adjusted the idle - that takes care of most of the dieseling (not willing to say it is gone, as I've not driven it enough yet to be sure). It still won't scare any new Mustangs, but the performance is better, the flat spot is gone etc. Now I just need to book some dyno time to see what's going on with carbs etc and see if they are OK.

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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:24 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Yay!

Now, a little homework for you Craig. Take the octane of the octane boost, and do a little proportioning of the volumes and see how much octane the NOS booster is giving you. When they say "Will improve octane by up to 6 points", they don't mean from 94 to 100... they mean from 94 to 94.6 (at best). There might be other changes besides measurable octane, but the quick & dirty measurements indicate that they don't do much.

Your ignition curve should really not be helping or causing the dieseling at all - once you bring the car down to idle, it should only take a second or two for the plugs to cool, and basically forget everything that happened before it (unless you're bagging the crap out of it - you're getting dieseling ALLL the time, correct?) Once you shut off the ignition, the ignition curve doesn't really matter! If you're getting dieseling after the fact, your hot spot is not being caused by your ignition system. You might aughta pull the head this winter & double check to be sure that you don't have any sharp corners, burrs, or otherwise. Maybe another trip through the chemical bath to get out any remaining calcium (or whatever it is) deposits in the cooling jacket...

I'm guessing that the dieseling is another sign that the compression ratio might be just a bit too high, or the camshaft isn't timed right, or something else is amiss. You're not really running very much ignition lead and the engine is still looking for more octane... Maybe while the head's off, you need to look at unshrouding things and generally increasing the volume in the head without killing squish. Maybe even more drastic measures like (gasp!) Singh grooves?


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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:48 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Ugly Duck wrote:
Yay!

Now, a little homework for you Craig. Take the octane of the octane boost, and do a little proportioning of the volumes and see how much octane the NOS booster is giving you. When they say "Will improve octane by up to 6 points", they don't mean from 94 to 100... they mean from 94 to 94.6 (at best). There might be other changes besides measurable octane, but the quick & dirty measurements indicate that they don't do much.

Your ignition curve should really not be helping or causing the dieseling at all - once you bring the car down to idle, it should only take a second or two for the plugs to cool, and basically forget everything that happened before it (unless you're bagging the crap out of it - you're getting dieseling ALLL the time, correct?) Once you shut off the ignition, the ignition curve doesn't really matter! If you're getting dieseling after the fact, your hot spot is not being caused by your ignition system. You might aughta pull the head this winter & double check to be sure that you don't have any sharp corners, burrs, or otherwise. Maybe another trip through the chemical bath to get out any remaining calcium (or whatever it is) deposits in the cooling jacket...

I'm guessing that the dieseling is another sign that the compression ratio might be just a bit too high, or the camshaft isn't timed right, or something else is amiss. You're not really running very much ignition lead and the engine is still looking for more octane... Maybe while the head's off, you need to look at unshrouding things and generally increasing the volume in the head without killing squish. Maybe even more drastic measures like (gasp!) Singh grooves?



I just looked that first part up - frick, marketing bastards screwed me again (see http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/0503 ... to_12.html)...now if I got it up to 95 octane it is still shed loads better than the weak piss 91 I was getting as premium in BC. Points - oh if I could get my hands on those pricks.

The ignition curve is not entirely unrelated as the combustion temps could be creating the heat. I don't get dieseling all the time - only when the engine is up to temp. So screwed up timing could be part of the issue (and the related issues of idle speed etc). Your calcium point has me thinking...I have no way of knowing if Parker did anything by way of cleaning inside and I did the best I could, but didn't tank it (as they don't do that anymore). I'm not opposed to having a little look-see this winter when the car is sleepiing.

Cam timing also got me thinking. I don't really want to swap out the cam, but part of me wants more power and I think I could get a more radical grind. It was timed straight up (as that's the only way you can time them as each tooth is something like 6 degrees) - so unless the cam was not ground straight ( :( ) then that's my only option unless I get offset keys made. I'll have to put the degree wheel on it again as I can't recall the numbers, but I don't recall it being off.

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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:06 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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OK - I'm booked for a Dyno session next week. Heartbreak time on Oct 1 - 8:30 am. That way I've got a baseline on this thing.

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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:15 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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122_Canuck wrote:
I just looked that first part up - frick, marketing bastards screwed me again (see http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/0503 ... to_12.html)...now if I got it up to 95 octane it is still shed loads better than the weak piss 91 I was getting as premium in BC. Points - oh if I could get my hands on those pricks.


Yep, the buggers. You'd swear it works, though... wonderful what the wallet dyno will do!

Quote:
The ignition curve is not entirely unrelated as the combustion temps could be creating the heat. I don't get dieseling all the time - only when the engine is up to temp. So screwed up timing could be part of the issue (and the related issues of idle speed etc). Your calcium point has me thinking...I have no way of knowing if Parker did anything by way of cleaning inside and I did the best I could, but didn't tank it (as they don't do that anymore). I'm not opposed to having a little look-see this winter when the car is sleepiing.


The point I was trying to make is that I will bet that the temperature of the combustion chamber surface drops rapidly once you bring the car back to idle. If you've got 5-10 degrees of actual timing advance (remember Greg's crank pulley being way off...) then while you're at idle, things are going to cool off rapidly. Try idling the car for a minute before shutting it off. Also try verifying the crank position via chopstick.

The other issue is that I've only ever had dieseling on an engine with the header directly under the intake manifold. You could try some header wrap - it wouldn't take much to insulate the first foot or so of the primaries. I've got some if you'd like to give it a whirl this winter.

Quote:
Cam timing also got me thinking. I don't really want to swap out the cam, but part of me wants more power and I think I could get a more radical grind. It was timed straight up (as that's the only way you can time them as each tooth is something like 6 degrees) - so unless the cam was not ground straight ( :( ) then that's my only option unless I get offset keys made. I'll have to put the degree wheel on it again as I can't recall the numbers, but I don't recall it being off.


A more radical grind would lower the DCR, as would a more retarded cam timing for what you've got. Each tooth on the crank pulley should be closer to 15-20 degrees, shouldn't it? Remember to divide your camshaft teeth into 720, since it turns at half the speed the crankshaft does. Regardless, if you were off a full tooth you'd KNOW it, but when my cam once jumped a tooth, the car ran HOTTTTT (and it was winter-ish). Granted, that was with a B21, and the cam/dizzy can't be counted on to jump in the same direction.

I should make the point (that I ignored earlier) that because you've got longer connecting rods, your R/S ratio is different from other B20s and your pistons dwell at TDC for a fraction longer. The upshot is that you'll need less spark lead than an otherwise identical B20. Actually, you'll need a different camshaft too, but that's another story...

Edit - your link is good reading. The only thing I've got to question is that pre-ignition was silent, from my understanding. Basically you're igniting the fuel quite a bit BTDC, so it's mostly burned up by the time the piston generates much pressure. Then as the piston comes to TDC, the pressure is crazy but there's nothing left to burn, therefore no ping. Tons of heat, though, burning through things like pistons & valves...


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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:30 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!
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Ugly Duck wrote:
Also try verifying the crank position via chopstick.


I haven't tried that yet - but will tonight...stamped crank pullies are not all exactly alike.

Ugly Duck wrote:
The other issue is that I've only ever had dieseling on an engine with the header directly under the intake manifold. You could try some header wrap - it wouldn't take much to insulate the first foot or so of the primaries. I've got some if you'd like to give it a whirl this winter.


I'll give that a try - sounds promising. I've got that cast manifold...maybe I should fab up a header.


Ugly Duck wrote:
A more radical grind would lower the DCR, as would a more retarded cam timing for what you've got. Each tooth on the crank pulley should be closer to 15-20 degrees, shouldn't it? Remember to divide your camshaft teeth into 720, since it turns at half the speed the crankshaft does. Regardless, if you were off a full tooth you'd KNOW it, but when my cam once jumped a tooth, the car ran HOTTTTT (and it was winter-ish). Granted, that was with a B21, and the cam/dizzy can't be counted on to jump in the same direction.


I'm with you there - I couldn't recall the tooth count, but they can't jump on this thing (gear drive) without something really going south (all steel gears). When I assemble them, I mark the timing mark on both gears and then slide them together to ensure they are timed correctly. No mistake there - no gaurantee on the cam grinding. My comment on a more radical cam was just my desire for more power - I know this would reduce my dynamic compression ratio but that would just be a bonus. Given the way I drive the car (longer road trip stuff and farting around town) it is only my inner 6 year old that wants more power (he should be ignored).


Ugly Duck wrote:
I should make the point (that I ignored earlier) that because you've got longer connecting rods, your R/S ratio is different from other B20s and your pistons dwell at TDC for a fraction longer. The upshot is that you'll need less spark lead than an otherwise identical B20. Actually, you'll need a different camshaft too, but that's another story...


That's originally why I backed it off...what book did you find that last little tid-bit in. I need to add it to my reading list. I still have to have a look at the colder plugs etc and see how they are working. So far they have not fouled - so that's a good thing. I also gapped them a bit tighter (25 thou instead of 30).

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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:42 pm 
4 Valves per cylinder!
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I just wanted to drop in to say that I'm on the edge of my seat with this thread. I went back and read the entire thing and loved it. I've got a '67 122S that I really like, but I need to do a few things so it'll pass inspection for insurance. The white backup lights don't work and the inspector said that there is some fluid leaking on the passenger side rear axle area near the wheel.

I'm a wannabe car mechanic (lots of enthusiasm, not much skill), but I've got all winter to figure a few things out. Your thread is inspiring. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: The B20 Assembly Thread
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:59 pm 
Haha, I just built a W24 Octo-Turbo, now what?!

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viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1477&start=0

More fun reading. Different car. Some of the personnel are the same though...

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