I replied to the thread below but thought I would start a new one here.

http://www.calgaryvolvoclub.com/forum/v ... c&start=15

Found this old thread and wanted to ask about installing a circulating style heater in an 86 740 NA. I bought a Zerostart tank style circulating heater but am unsure where to plumb it in.

From looking at the instructions the inlet goes as low as possible on the block, and the outlet should go to the heater inlet hose so it circulates through the heater core and then back to the engine. Does this make sense?

After reading through this thread I don't know if I want to be pulling out frost plugs as the instructions suggest so trying to figure out where to pipe the inlet to. Also if I mount the heater on the passenger side fender down on the frame rail would I need to run a hose up and around to tee into the heater hose as the line that comes off the side of the water pump is hard piped around the side of the engine.

I hate to say it but once I got looking at installing this my first thought is to take it back and get the heater that splices into the lower rad hose. I don't think these work as well as the tank style at getting the whole system hot?

The final thought is why I am doing this in the first place as the car already has a block heater? My oldest daughter who is driving this car is bitching about loosing her spot in the garage and has to park outside now (wah!!). I am trying to get it so the car is warm right away, even though we know Volvo's heat up quick we're talking whiny teen here....

Well yeah, but why?

Relying on a block heater in the winter is silly, IMHO. One day you're going to get caught where there's nowhere to plug in (like, she left it at the bar all night), and the car won't start because you've been masking other problems (like a dying battery or poor battery connections) with the block heater.

The #1 preferred method in my house is to run 5w30 Mobil 1 synthetic for the winter, at the very least. On really cold mornings you get oil pressure about 10 times quicker than if you were plugged in and had conventional 5w30 oil, and you never have to worry about plugging in. No 3:30 AM rescue calls for the win! Edit - seriously, I've been doing this for about 10 years and have never failed to get the car started. Even on the -40 mornings, it cranks over pretty well and fires up easily. The battery is really what's making it tough to start on those cold mornings, so get a GOOD one.

If she's really whiny, buy her one of those ceramic heaters for inside the car, and tell her to leave the fan off until the car warms up.

Edit - change the power steering fluid while you're at it, so it doesn't sound like it's going to tear itself to bits on those really cold mornings. A block heater won't fix this problem either, but it's one of those things she'll cling to when she's saying "But daddy, it's so COLD out there!"

New battery this fall and just changed oil to 0W30 synthetic which has been a standard for a number of years, starting should not be a problem. I am trying to get her heat immediately so she doesn't let it idle forever (although she buys the gas I still hear about it). Thought about the in car heater but having the engine hot helps with fuel economy and the heat is on right away.

^^Edit x2: Yeah and the blower fan which has been squealing off and on lately which I "heard" about it....

Well don't forget that not all synthetics are true PAO synthetics. Many of them on the market today have no better pour point than a "non synthetic", and will freeze up solid between -35 and -40*C.

The coolant heater is about as effective as a hair dryer to get the car warm. It buys you only a couple minutes of warmup time. Idling it to heat it up is also pretty ineffective, since you're getting infinitely bad fuel economy while in neutral. Start it, scrape the windows, drive it. Shouldn't spend more than 90 seconds idling in the AM before you get moving. Keep it slow and don't drive it hard until some temp starts to show on the gauge, and it'll warm up pretty quickly.

I would gently remind her that she lives in Alberta, personally.

You're preaching to the converted.

I haven't used one but the consensus on circulating tank type heaters is pretty positive for providing immediate heat. They are pretty much a cold climate standard on VW TDi's to get heat out of their diesels.

"IF" you believed in a circulating coolant heater, or were being paid to install one, how would you do it?? I realize what you're saying but without getting in to a lot of details it's not a simple as you might think (both the install and why I want to do it).

PS: Now that you mention oils, what is UFA Super Polar, it's rebranded Esso xd-3 from what I have read? Used to use Amsoil which is a PAO spec oil but couldn't justify the price and hassle of finding it. Also not all Mobil1 is PAO as per all the trouble Exxon got in to with the group 3 oils pawned off as full synthetic.

I've got a circulating heater in the TDI and I've got one in the Canuck...neither of them look anything alike and non will be just what you need. That said, there are coolant lines that can be tapped into and a heater installed. I've got mine for the following reasons - my daily is a diesel and it makes life easier at -20 for them. The Canuck is carb'ed - so it needs a little help as well...not that I'm driving it in the winter. The 242 has some form of block heater and I figure, not contradicting Matt at all, if it's already installed it can't hurt.

Would I let a knuckle bleed to put one in - probably not.

As far as the oils go, I feel like I've just swatted a beehive. I'm not one of these guys who read BITOG forums or WHMIS reports all day long, so I don't know which of the oils is the absolute best thing to have. I also don't know what the UFA Super Polar oil is based on. I suspected that new the Mobil1 oils that the US has been getting - the three "levels" - have been either group 3 oils or a blend. I haven't seen much of those up here so I've felt safe in buying the tried-and-true blue bottles, but I suppose it's something to watch out for now.

Anyway, sorry to sound like I'm anti-block heater. I truly believe that it can mask other starting problems if you use one every day, and that a car isn't worth a damn if you can't rely on it starting in Southern Alberta's winter. I suppose that attitude has to change at some point, because in Northern Alberta I'm sure they approach things a little differently, and diesels already have a hard time in Southern Alberta, and I think they're okay... For my wife's car or my daughter's, though, if I can't trust it to start up and drive home any day of the week, it's no good to me.

The funny thing about these block heaters is that because they're designed to connect to heater hoses, all they're really going to do is heat up the water in the heater core, which will immediately get swept away and mixed in with the rest of the coolant as soon as the engine is started. It's such a small amount of coolant that I don't see it significantly warming the total volume, and it sure as heck won't heat the cabin any quicker, nor is it softening the oil bond between piston and cylinder. I still believe that heating up the 3 or 4 litres of water that sit in the engine is a better idea than trying to circulate water through a hose with one of these things...

I would have to see it in order to know how I would install it. If it has a check valve, I would put it in parallel with the heater core, check valve resisting back flow when the engine is on (keeping in mind that the heater core presents a significant resistance to flow, so lots of coolant could short-circuit through the block heater and bypass the heater core, eliminating any benefit.) I guess you could put it in line with the return hose from the heater core, in hopes that warm coolant would circulate through the core and the block, and that you wouldn't just be heating up a small container of water without any circulation.

There are no instructions, I take it?

Agreed, I have witnessed far to many synthetic oil posts go no where fast. I will try and find some pour point specs on the UFA/xd-3 oil, however I suspect it's not a PAO class oil so it may not be as good as I thought.

No problem on the anti-block heater thing, I see where you're coming from although like I said this car should start at pretty much any temp unplugged. Not being able to get it started has never been issue as it is going to have to start at school, the bar etc. without a plug-in. I have always run my work truck on 0W30 synthetic with a good battery as getting back to the motel at night for a plug-in was never a sure thing and getting it started the next morning was essential (back when I did that sort of thing).

The instructions are your generic connect suction to the lowest point and discharge to the highest for the thermosyphon effect. From what I can gather from other forums like tdiclub.com, thedieselstop.com etc. these heaters do a good job of heating and circulating coolant "IF" installed properly. I have read posts by users who were unhappy with the results they achieved, I suspect they were tied in wrong were deadended and consequently heated a small portion of coolant only.

Yes the unit I have does have a check valve. From posts elsewhere it appears the best results were obtained by drawing cold coolant from the block at the lowest possible point, and tieing the discharge in to the heater inlet hose. If the heat control is set to hot should'nt the fluid circulate from the block, up through the heater core, and return back to the block thereby heating a large portion of the coolant in the system? The posts by TDi owners indicated that the heat developed was not short term indicating that a fair amount of warming had occurred?

Finally, I agree with everything both you and Craig have stated about this whole issue. Without going in to a bunch of detail there are reasons for doing this that go far beyond any of the common sense, "tough it out" ideals that we may all believe in.

Edit: link to the heater I have

http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/produ ... product_aa

The 740 does not have a heater control valve. That was one thing I was going to mention, until I re-read that this was on a 700. All the heat control comes from air bypass around the heater core. There is a vacuum-controlled valve that you should remove when you've got the coolant drained, as they tend to explode and leak all your coolant. They are supposed to shut when you've got your AC on, but when you've got your AC on you've probably got the air bypass door wide open, so not much heat comes out the heater core anyway.

If you're pulling coolant from the lower rad hose and returning the warm coolant to the heater inlet, it will just return from the heater core to the back of the water pump, where the block heater pulls it's cool water from. You'll be drawing up some cool water from the rad but the majority of the heat will travel through the HC only. If you plumb the block heater outlet to the heater core outlet, some will probably go through the heater core and back to the head outlet, while some will travel back through the pipe and to the back of the water pump, short circuiting the desired effect.

I would be tempted to tap into the line going from the rad to the overflow container, and pump it into the heater core inlet. That way you're drawing from the cool radiator and pumping it into the heater core and into the top of the head, which will filter down to the lower rad hose and eventually back up into the rad. This ensures probably 80% of the coolant will be affected by the block heater.

Didn't you say that it already HAD a block heater? You're going to run two?

get an oil heater! those inline ones are overrated and the damn hoses start leaking after awhile.
most synthetic oils collect moisture and cause PCV freeze up (blows out your seals) and or engine starvation of oil (nothing like an oil pickup with a block of ice around it).

idling an engine? it's a killer in cold weather..

That's a new one for me, Paul. Honestly I've never seen that, but I change my oil much more often than you can actually get away with when using synthetic oil, which I would suspect as the primary reason for any additional water absorption. If you let it go for 12,000 miles and the engine never heats up enough to boil the water out of the oil, I can see what you're saying happening. Conventional oil needs to be changed so often it'll never see significant moisture buildup.

This happened to me once, way back in the day on the old 245. It was a particularly bad cold snap (winter 2000?), probably a bunch of shorter trips, no highway for sure, and one cold night she ups and dumps all her oil out the front seals. Had her towed to bert & jacks where they diagnosed a totally clogged up oil separator box. running mobil 1 at the time, wouldn't even have been super long between changes.